John Babich (jmbuser) ([info]jmbuser) wrote,
@ 2007-05-25 12:32:00
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Wanted: KDE and Xfce Writers

(or The Great FUG Challenge, Part Deux)

Fedora 7 is all about choice. The comfortable, but confining, world of default desktop apps is effectively over.

Yes, it's never been GNOME vs. KDE, despite some common misconceptions.

It's best-of-breed GNOME and KDE apps, with Xfce apps eager to star in their very own live CD. (It's only a matter of time.)

The brave new world of GNOME and KDE live CD installs means that the GNOME-centric Desktop User Guide (DUG) must be transformed into the new, improved FUG (Fedora User Guide).

No longer can Fedora newbies be sheltered from the harsh realities of the linux desktop manager. We must write boldly of GNOME, KDE and Xfce, with perhaps a fleeting reference to TWM.

We need a few brave souls who are willing to put forth their love of KDE and Xfce for all to see.

"But what can I do?," you're thinking.

I'm glad you asked, err, thought. You can

- Volunteer to write a section on the versatile Konqueror (It's a file manager, no! - it's a web browser).

- Explain how KolourPaint is great at resizing photos.

- Introduce the masses to powerful Thunar and the adorable little Mousepad.

I dare you.


(23 comments) - (Post a new comment)

Do we learn nothing from Apple?
(Anonymous)
2007-05-25 11:37 am UTC (link)
"The comfortable, but confining, world of default desktop apps is effectively over"

Thanks so much! More choice, more apps, KDE, Gnome, Xfce oh my! 3 different ways to do the same thing! Let's mix and match! Woohoo!

Goodbye Fedora.

(Reply to this) (Thread)
Re: Do we learn nothing from Apple?
(Anonymous)
2007-05-25 12:18 pm UTC (link)
Why would we want to learn from Apple? Apple which locks their music to their music store, drm, takes from open source and gives back scraps?

Fedora has always provided a lot of choice. In the world of multiple spin what is the meaning of a default?

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)
Re: Do we learn nothing from Apple?
[info]philbull
2007-05-25 12:29 pm UTC (link)
"Why would we want to learn from Apple?"

Well, Apple have some very popular products and some very happy users, so they must be making some good decisions somewhere. It's ridiculous to write-off Apple entirely just because they're a bit evil here and there. Just don't use the evil things as inspiration!

As for user choice, try to think what 'the users' might actually want. Do they want an OS which works 'out of the box', or do they want to amass a collection of window managers?

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)
Re: Do we learn nothing from Apple?
(Anonymous)
2007-05-25 05:56 pm UTC (link)
"It's ridiculous to write-off Apple entirely just because they're a bit evil here and there. Just don't use the evil things as inspiration!"

It is not just a "bit" evil. There is huge amounts of evil within the company. Don't ask the company to be a inspiration and then ask me to ignore certain things. Products can be a inspiration. The company on the whole is certainly not.

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)
Re: Do we learn nothing from Apple?
[info]philbull
2007-05-25 08:49 pm UTC (link)
"There is huge amounts of evil within the company."

Hmmm, I'd debate that there were 'huge amounts' of evil in Apple. I'm critical of some of their practices (DRM, higher-than-average levels of toxic chemicals in products etc), but on the whole I can't say that I've seen any evidence that they're more evil than your average multi-national.

"Don't ask the company to be a inspiration and then ask me to ignore certain things."

So does that mean we should go out of our way to _not_ use the same ideas as Apple, even if they're very good ideas?

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)
Re: Do we learn nothing from Apple?
(Anonymous)
2007-05-26 06:10 am UTC (link)
"So does that mean we should go out of our way to _not_ use the same ideas as Apple, even if they're very good ideas?"

No. It is ok to say follow these specific ideas. It is NOT ok to say follow Apple.

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)
Re: Do we learn nothing from Apple?
[info]philbull
2007-05-26 08:31 am UTC (link)
Then we're agreed (mostly)! Who in their right mind would just follow some company blindly without thinking through the ideas for themselves?

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)
Re: Do we learn nothing from Apple?
(Anonymous)
2007-05-26 06:08 pm UTC (link)
Some people most certainly do. Some of the Apple fans are notorious/famous for that.

(Reply to this) (Parent)
you're kidding
(Anonymous)
2007-05-25 12:32 pm UTC (link)
(I'm posting as anon because openid does not seem to work, using http://thomasvs.myopenid.com/)

As a faithful Fedora user, this sounds terrible.

It was indeed never GNOME vs. KDE, it was "GNOME is the default" and "people who want something else can figure out, with the help of some docs, how to switch"

No way do I want to be asked when installing Fedora what desktop I want. No way should the manual contain information on ALL of them.

Get the user started with sensible defaults, and make the manual document the sensible defaults, and keep that manual as small as possible within that default set.

Possibly then add separate manuals for customizing. But keep the customization out of the main manual.

(Reply to this) (Thread)
Re: you're kidding
[info]katzj
2007-05-25 07:35 pm UTC (link)
Agreed 110%

(Reply to this) (Parent)
Re: you're kidding
[info]kevin_kofler
2007-05-25 09:26 pm UTC (link)
Disagreed 110%, I'd agree with a single default if it was KDE though. ;-)

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)
Re: you're kidding
(Anonymous)
2007-05-27 04:40 pm UTC (link)
Im a kde guy myself, but no way would I make the default something as unstable as kde. You would have tons of noobs thinking fedora is unstable, when really it's just kde.

(Reply to this) (Parent)
Re: you're kidding
[info]thomasvs.myopenid.com
2007-05-28 09:28 am UTC (link)
See, there's the problem - people who want their favourite in no matter what the cost.

Me, I'd still be in favor of "don't ask me what to install" *even if* the default was KDE.

I would probably switch to another distro, but that's a different point. Fedora can choose what it wants, but it should choose for the user, not have the user choose.

(Reply to this) (Parent)
pick your breakage
(Anonymous)
2007-05-25 04:10 pm UTC (link)
Yay! Now instead of having one non-optimal way to do things, users get the benefit of being forced to make needless choices to pick which non-optimal way they want to do things. Awesome!

If you have two paint apps, for example, then instead of forcing both of them down users throats and expecting them to switch between them based on their needs, put some effort into improving one or both so that they are each completely adequate on their own.

If I need to use two apps for the same general task, then both apps are crap, and I don't want to waste time using either of them.

(Reply to this) (Thread)
Re: pick your breakage
(Anonymous)
2007-05-25 05:57 pm UTC (link)
"Yay! Now instead of having one non-optimal way to do things, users get the benefit of being forced to make needless choices to pick which non-optimal way they want to do things. Awesome!"

No. People who talk like this havent even bothered to check the different Fedora spins.

(Reply to this) (Parent)

[info]secretlyironic
2007-05-25 05:31 pm UTC (link)
You know that FUG means fugly right?

(Reply to this) (Thread)

(Anonymous)
2007-05-25 05:58 pm UTC (link)
Acronyms are overloaded. Big deal. Get over it.

(Reply to this) (Parent)

(Anonymous)
2007-05-26 08:00 am UTC (link)
I don't want complications

I don't want to know what is kde or xfce or gnome

I just want ONE INTERFACE and easy computer

i just want fedora to be open and if people want to add kde or other they can. but I DON'T WANt TO CHOOSE !

and yeah, apple is better in that respect. people are happier. I mean, people working on a computer. not tweaking the computer without end.

goodbye fedora , go to ubuntu !

(Reply to this) (Thread)
just my point
(Anonymous)
2007-05-26 04:52 pm UTC (link)
As I (not so obviously) stated in the post about the vast majority, mt. what's his name here doesn't want to choose. If forced he'll probably pick at random.

By the way, Ubuntu offers choice man. There are: Ubuntu (with Gnome), Kubuntu (with KDE) and Xubuntu (with XFCE). I'm guessing you said "hello Ubuntu, goodbye Fedora" because you didn't realize that the Ubuntu people separated their GUIs this way to keep the install clean (and other reasons).

(Reply to this) (Parent)
The vast majority
(Anonymous)
2007-05-26 04:49 pm UTC (link)
Except for the masses of Gnome or KDE zealots out there (I hope you all die), the truth is that most of the time there is no preferred GUI. (For example, I've been using Linux in a form or another for the better part of a decade (mostly RH or spawns of) and when I needed to install a GUI, I went for what was best at that moment (fastest, stablest and closest to my user needs).
So, my opinion is that while the standard zealot will select his or her favorite GUI and a (small) part will pick what they think is best for their needs at that moment, the vast majority will go with whatever is either selected by default, if nothing is selected for them, they will click on the first option in the list, pick them after which has the nicest looking logo or name or flip a coin (like mr. Luis Villa said).

(Reply to this) (Thread)
to continue...
(Anonymous)
2007-05-26 05:11 pm UTC (link)
As most of you know, you can't use just KDE or Gnome applications (well you can, but that's not the point) to obtain the best results. Usually you'll find the same user running either KDE or Gnome and applications from both (both Qt and GTK apps).

Eh.. never mind

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)
Re: to continue...
[info]kevin_kofler
2007-05-27 01:44 pm UTC (link)
Good point, and that's exactly why we need both. ;-)

(Reply to this) (Parent)

[info]arvindn
2007-05-27 06:17 pm UTC (link)
Feel free to wallow in your own little fantasy world. This is one of the reasons why I dumped Fedora.

(Reply to this)

(23 comments) - (Post a new comment)

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